# Where oh where did VW go wrong? **Source:** https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/where-oh-where-did-vw-go-wrong.56625/ **Posts:** 25 --- ### — 2024-12-17T23:40:03+0100 (Dec 17, 2024) Hi all, it is puzzling me already for some time...at least since the debacle of an ID Buzz camper (reason; to heavy but every designer could have known that) and also with the introduction of the latest "T7" "California" as a ***camper***van. Since I heard from the plans (some two years ago) of VW and Ford to produce a whole new Transporter/Transit in Diesel/Petrol/Hybrid/Electric configuration my thoughts were that they could make a T6.1 Cali successor on that platform. Both automakers have enough experience (and expertise?) with campervans (Ford with Westaflia) and it could/would still be a proper campervan with te foreseen design and measurements. Let's see what they came up with (a marketing picture of current available Transporter) ![Volkswagen-Bedrijfswagens-Nieuwe-e-Transporter-Header-MP-24.jpeg](images/volkswagen-bedrijfswagens-nieuwe-e-transporter-header-mp-24-jpeg.131368 "Volkswagen-Bedrijfswagens-Nieuwe-e-Transporter-Header-MP-24.jpeg") Not a bad design is it? Very recognizable in my opinion. And as for I can take from the measurement a van that can be easily transformed into a Cali in their factory in Hannover...and the basemodel is already there in their product portfolio! So what was the **management** and **designers** thinking when they got working on the Yuppie ID Buzz and on the weekend leisure vehicle now known as The New California (T7). Why not have taken a look at competitor MB with their Vito (electric) campervan solution. Why not opening new talks with Westfalia (or others). Are they that desperate in Wolfsburg? I have talked about this with numerous sellers of T5/6/6.1 and really nobody gets it and almost nobody believes in the New Cali, except for maybe a small new line of customers. Hopefully other manufacturers will jump in of building a real Cali successor... Very curious about your thoughts.... --- ### — 2024-12-17T23:48:53+0100 (Dec 17, 2024) > [Multi1100 said:](/goto/post?id=733119) > > Hi all, it is puzzling me already for some time...at least since the debacle of an ID Buzz camper (reason; to heavy but every designer could have known that) and also with the introduction of the latest "T7" "California" as a ***camper***van. > Since I heard from the plans (some two years ago) of VW and Ford to produce a whole new Transporter/Transit in Diesel/Petrol/Hybrid/Electric configuration my thoughts were that they could make a T6.1 Cali successor on that platform. Both automakers have enough experience (and expertise?) with campervans (Ford with Westaflia) and it could/would still be a proper campervan with te foreseen design and measurements. Let's see what they came up with (a marketing picture of current available Transporter) > [View attachment 131368](https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/attachments/131368/) > > Not a bad design is it? Very recognizable in my opinion. And as for I can take from the measurement a van that can be easily transformed into a Cali in their factory in > Hannover...and the basemodel is already there in their product portfolio! > So what was the **management** and **designers** thinking when they got working on the Yuppie ID Buzz and on the weekend leisure vehicle now known as The New California (T7). > Why not have taken a look at competitor MB with their Vito (electric) campervan solution. Why not opening new talks with Westfalia (or others). Are they that desperate in Wolfsburg? > I have talked about this with numerous sellers of T5/6/6.1 and really nobody gets it and almost nobody believes in the New Cali, except for maybe a small new line of customers. > > Hopefully other manufacturers will jump in of building a real Cali successor... > > Very curious about your thoughts.... > > Click to expand... Maybe because the Old California factory is in Hannover and the New Transporter is built in Turkey? --- ### — 2024-12-17T23:58:30+0100 (Dec 17, 2024) Transportation should not be a problem I think --- ### — 2024-12-18T00:30:40+0100 (Dec 18, 2024) the transporter based campervan (Westfalia): ### [De nieuwe Ford Transit Custom Nugget kampeerwagen | Ford BE](https://www.nl.ford.be/bestelwagens-en-pick-ups/new-transit-custom-nugget) Voel u direct thuis in de nieuwe Ford Transit Custom Nugget kampeerwagen. Ontdek de nieuwe Ford Transit Custom Nugget campingcar hier. www.nl.ford.be --- ### — 2024-12-18T02:18:36+0100 (Dec 18, 2024) I believe what makes a 'California' such a compelling ownership proposition is its versatility - it’s truly a Swiss Army knife of a vehicle that can be an everyday driver, a load hauler and a camper. It does none of these things better than a single purpose vehicle with the unavoidable compromises of the base vehicle but as a package it’s almost unique. The new multi-van California is still a multi-function vehicle but with the emphasis shifted more to being a daily driver than a camper so it’s still worthy of the California 'brand' imo. The Transit based Nugget shifts the focus more to camping vs everyday driving and load hauling (no practical boot space with the rear kitchen layout). The multi-van is now really more of a Marco Polo competitor. The old T6 van based Cali's outsold the Mercedes offering significantly so it’ll be interesting to see if VW expands that segment enough to make it commercially viable longer term. I have my reservations, for it to succeed as a 'lifestyle' vehicle it needs the third party equipment manufacturers & dealers to embrace the multi-van version in the same way that they have the Transporter, as VW seems bent on eating their lunch too I think it’s unlikely. FWIW I think the new California will outsell Marco Polo but will not sell in the same numbers as the Transporter version, the third party equipment sector will focus on the T7/Transit and the converters will fill the gap. Good news for Westfalia and the independents with decent R&D capacity. We may even see the likes of Hymer building premium versions on a T7 base. --- ### — 2024-12-18T08:16:08+0100 (Dec 18, 2024) I would never buy a Ford wet belt based vehicle. --- ### — 2024-12-18T12:33:39+0100 (Dec 18, 2024) There is one - the new Nugget. Mercedes own Westfalia don’t they? Thats why they parted ways. That’s why the original Cali became a VW product. You could get a Marco Polo or Nugget… --- ### — 2024-12-18T14:29:28+0100 (Dec 18, 2024) > [Lambeth Cali said:](/goto/post?id=733144) > > There is one - the new Nugget. > > Mercedes own Westfalia don’t they? Thats why they parted ways. That’s why the original Cali became a VW product. > > You could get a Marco Polo or Nugget… > > Click to expand... No they are no longer owned by Daimler, there was a management buyout in 2008. They are now owned by Rapido Group. --- ### — 2024-12-18T15:35:37+0100 (Dec 18, 2024) > [wildslammer22 said:](/goto/post?id=733127) > > FWIW I think the new California will outsell Marco Polo but will not sell in the same numbers as the Transporter version, the third party equipment sector will focus on the T7/Transit and the converters will fill the gap. Good news for Westfalia and the independents with decent R&D capacity. We may even see the likes of Hymer building premium versions on a T7 base. > > Click to expand... Agree --- ### — 2024-12-18T17:02:27+0100 (Dec 18, 2024) I think the converters will be all over that like flies on Poo poo. Some tw\*t bloke tried to tell me that it's always been difficult to test drive a Cali in Wales but that's bollocks and it's not the drive that's the problem. I think the issue will be the internal size and I want to see the MV Cali in person. --- ### — 2024-12-18T17:35:00+0100 (Dec 18, 2024) > [larrylamb said:](/goto/post?id=733130) > > I would never buy a Ford wet belt based vehicle. > > Click to expand... Had three blown engines on my work fleet. Completely agree. --- ### — 2024-12-18T17:36:09+0100 (Dec 18, 2024) CaliforniaChris keeps referring to the new Cali as a weekend camper on his youtube channel. A great MPV, but a weekend camper. Many t6/t5 cali owners may well only really use their transporter as a weekend camper. However for those of us who want to do 2 to 3 week camping trips it is a none starter. --- ### — 2024-12-18T18:21:42+0100 (Dec 18, 2024) I actually like the new van (shock, horror!) but I can’t see how 2 adults can sleep comfortably downstairs when needed (as we did on current van last week). I think lots of the ‘other’ issues can be overcome by just taking less - and we tend to do 6 week tours around Europe, so not easy! --- ### — 2024-12-18T20:50:55+0100 (Dec 18, 2024) I suspect that many on here are more hardcore campers than a lot (maybe the majority) of current and potential future Cali owners. So whether vw have got it right or wrong in terms of shifting the balance towards mpv remains to be seen. I am going to guess they did a lot of research. We love our 6.1 Ocean but would not contemplate taking it for 3 weeks of camping. Might stop for 3-5 nights in between Airbnb or hotels. But wouldn’t use it as the only accommodation. So for us the new one looks interesting - just too expensive! --- ### — 2024-12-19T17:57:14+0100 (Dec 19, 2024) > [JuanVecino2023 said:](/goto/post?id=733157) > > Had three blown engines on my work fleet. Completely agree. > > Click to expand... Our last fleet of transits had no issues. I’ve owned two Volkswagen transporters which have given me major engine trouble. Take from that, what you will… --- ### — 2024-12-19T18:50:46+0100 (Dec 19, 2024) > [m10chkcalifornia said:](/goto/post?id=733166) > > I suspect that many on here are more hardcore campers than a lot (maybe the majority) of current and potential future Cali owners. So whether vw have got it right or wrong in terms of shifting the balance towards mpv remains to be seen. I am going to guess they did a lot of research. We love our 6.1 Ocean but would not contemplate taking it for 3 weeks of camping. Might stop for 3-5 nights in between Airbnb or hotels. But wouldn’t use it as the only accommodation. So for us the new one looks interesting - just too expensive! > > Click to expand... VW sold over 21,000 T6.1 Cali’s in the UK in 2023. During the same period Mercedes sold c.60,000 V Class in total worldwide. So it’s safe to assume that the sales numbers for the Marco Polo are tiny in comparison to the ‘old’ California. Given the new Multivan Cali is very similar in dynamics, size, practicality and price to the Marco Polo it would suggest it’s competing for a much smaller market. This of course doesn’t take into account the cachet of the California brand which may well grow the segment for a premium camper with a driving rather than camping focus. I do think it will significantly outsell the Marco Polo but I’m very doubtful it will get anywhere near the 21,000 Cali’s sold in the UK last year. It may do better in other markets but again I’m sceptical. Germany, Netherlands and Belgium may be lucrative markets. Elsewhere in Europe motorhomes vastly outsell premium small Campervans. I’m not sure the new Cali has enough appeal to build significant new markets. --- ### — 2024-12-19T22:47:26+0100 (Dec 19, 2024) > [wildslammer22 said:](/goto/post?id=733213) > > VW sold over 21,000 T6.1 Cali’s in the UK in 2023. During the same period Mercedes sold c.60,000 V Class in total worldwide. So it’s safe to assume that the sales numbers for the Marco Polo are tiny in comparison to the ‘old’ California. > > Given the new Multivan Cali is very similar in dynamics, size, practicality and price to the Marco Polo it would suggest it’s competing for a much smaller market. This of course doesn’t take into account the cachet of the California brand which may well grow the segment for a premium camper with a driving rather than camping focus. > > I do think it will significantly outsell the Marco Polo but I’m very doubtful it will get anywhere near the 21,000 Cali’s sold in the UK last year. It may do better in other markets but again I’m sceptical. Germany, Netherlands and Belgium may be lucrative markets. Elsewhere in Europe motorhomes vastly outsell premium small Campervans. I’m not sure the new Cali has enough appeal to build significant new markets. > > Click to expand... 21,000 Cali's sounds a lot? - pulls it's data from DVLA - and suggests 1379 in 2023? --- ### — 2024-12-19T22:58:51+0100 (Dec 19, 2024) > [Sheffield10 said:](/goto/post?id=733218) > > 21,000 Cali's sounds a lot? > > - pulls it's data from DVLA - and suggests 1379 in 2023? > > Click to expand... I was trying to find the source article, it was on the VW press site. I suspect that was the total number of Californias sold in 2023 not just the UK so it’s a good gotcha! I found this one which say 21,000+ sold in 2022 but that was total sales. I’d imagine the UK is one of the largest if not largest markets outside of Germany (they aren’t sold in North America) so 1379 looks low but 21,000 definitely too high! --- ### — 2024-12-20T00:27:44+0100 (Dec 20, 2024) > [wildslammer22 said:](/goto/post?id=733220) > > I was trying to find the source article, it was on the VW press site. I suspect that was the total number of Californias sold in 2023 not just the UK so it’s a good gotcha! > > I found this one which say 21,000+ sold in 2022 but that was total sales. I’d imagine the UK is one of the largest if not largest markets outside of Germany (they aren’t sold in North America) so 1379 looks low but 21,000 definitely too high! > > > > > Click to expand... I clearly haven't got enough to do! - here's the new registration data 2019-2023 direct from the DVLA website - [https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...ing-statistics-data-files#download-data-files](https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/vehicle-licensing-statistics-data-files#download-data-files) 1379 in 2023 is still 26 every week! ![:)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7 "Smile :)") But I agree, the VW press release figure of 200,000 Hanover Cali's since they started does make you wonder where they've all been sold. I can't see them repeating these numbers over the next 20 years with the direction they've chosen. | | | | | | | | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | | Row Labels | 2019 | 2020 | 2021 | 2022 | 2023 | | CALIFORNIA 30 YEARS TDI BMT SA | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA 30YRS TDI BMT 4M SA | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA BEACH BLUE TDI AUTO | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA BEACH BLUEMOTIONTDI | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA BEACH CAMPER TDI SA | 0 | 0 | 88 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA BEACH ED TDI BMT SA | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA BEACH TDI | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | | CALIFORNIA BEACH TDI BMT | 27 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | | CALIFORNIA BEACH TDI BMT S-A | 402 | 23 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA BEACH TDI S-A | 0 | 0 | 15 | 211 | 176 | | CALIFORNIA BEACH TOUR TDI S-A | 0 | 0 | 42 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA BEACH TSI BMT | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA COAST TDI S-A | 1 | 135 | 208 | 227 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA OCEAN ED TDI BMT SA | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI 4M S-A | 0 | 157 | 193 | 365 | 155 | | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI BMT | 30 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI BMT 4M | 11 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI BMT 4M SA | 174 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI BMT S-A | 644 | 81 | 1 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI S-A | 0 | 298 | 442 | 833 | 970 | | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TSI BMT | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TSI BMT S-A | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA SE TDI 140 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA SE TDI 180 4X4 AUTO | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA SE TDI 4MOTION BMT | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA SE TDI 4MOTION BMTA | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA SE TDI BMT | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA SE TDI BMT AUTO | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA SE TDI BMT S-A | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | CALIFORNIA SURF TDI S-A | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 75 | | CALIFORNIA TDI BMT | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | | Grand Total | 1306 | 704 | 994 | 1638 | 1379 | --- ### — 2024-12-20T01:12:54+0100 (Dec 20, 2024) > [Sheffield10 said:](/goto/post?id=733224) > > I clearly haven't got enough to do! - here's the new registration data 2019-2023 direct from the DVLA website - [https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...ing-statistics-data-files#download-data-files](https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/vehicle-licensing-statistics-data-files#download-data-files) > > 1379 in 2023 is still 26 every week! ![:)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7 "Smile :)") But I agree, the VW press release figure of 200,000 Hanover Cali's since they started does make you wonder where they've all been sold. I can't see them repeating these numbers over the next 20 years with the direction they've chosen. > > > | | | | | | | > | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | > | Row Labels | 2019 | 2020 | 2021 | 2022 | 2023 | > | CALIFORNIA 30 YEARS TDI BMT SA | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA 30YRS TDI BMT 4M SA | 7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA BEACH BLUE TDI AUTO | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA BEACH BLUEMOTIONTDI | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA BEACH CAMPER TDI SA | 0 | 0 | 88 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA BEACH ED TDI BMT SA | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA BEACH TDI | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | > | CALIFORNIA BEACH TDI BMT | 27 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | > | CALIFORNIA BEACH TDI BMT S-A | 402 | 23 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA BEACH TDI S-A | 0 | 0 | 15 | 211 | 176 | > | CALIFORNIA BEACH TOUR TDI S-A | 0 | 0 | 42 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA BEACH TSI BMT | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA COAST TDI S-A | 1 | 135 | 208 | 227 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA OCEAN ED TDI BMT SA | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI 4M S-A | 0 | 157 | 193 | 365 | 155 | > | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI BMT | 30 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI BMT 4M | 11 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI BMT 4M SA | 174 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI BMT S-A | 644 | 81 | 1 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TDI S-A | 0 | 298 | 442 | 833 | 970 | > | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TSI BMT | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA OCEAN TSI BMT S-A | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA SE TDI 140 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA SE TDI 180 4X4 AUTO | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA SE TDI 4MOTION BMT | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA SE TDI 4MOTION BMTA | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA SE TDI BMT | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA SE TDI BMT AUTO | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA SE TDI BMT S-A | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | CALIFORNIA SURF TDI S-A | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 75 | > | CALIFORNIA TDI BMT | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | > | Grand Total | 1306 | 704 | 994 | 1638 | 1379 | > > Click to expand... Impressive work! --- ### — 2024-12-20T08:36:05+0100 (Dec 20, 2024) > [Sheffield10 said:](/goto/post?id=733224) > > 1379 in 2023 is still 26 every week! ![:)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7 "Smile :)") But I agree, the VW press release figure of 200,000 Hanover Cali's since they started does make you wonder where they've all been sold. > > Click to expand... That is over 38 years worldwide & includes 22,000 T3 and 39,000 T4 models so on average only 5,263 per year. --- ### — 2024-12-20T09:20:59+0100 (Dec 20, 2024) Of course VW, and anyone else manufacturing small Campervans are not going to be able to repeat these sales over the next 20 yrs. The IC powered Campervan will no longer be made in 5 yrs time. Its replacement will be bigger and heavier . Things are a changing in the Western World and unless there are big developments in powering vehicles/ campervans the equivilent Transporter Campervan will cease to exist. --- ### W — 2024-12-20T10:50:31+0100 (Dec 20, 2024) I managed to view one for the first time at a dealer this week. From the outside, latest styling (multivan), nice new dash , no gear lever and comfy front seats. But that's about all the good points for me. My reason for not liking it isn't because I don't like progress, it's because now (for me at least) it is no longer a practical camper. Making it like a day van is just not suitable - big reduction in storage areas; single ring cooker; narrow rear seats; small internal table; nowhere to stash the loo inside; reduction in towing capacity. Also with it having a plastic tailgate, I'm not sure whether a bike rack is an option. They will sell, but to a different market. The new model will be a massive boost for the converters who will continue to build practical campers on the Van platform. --- ### — 2024-12-20T11:30:46+0100 (Dec 20, 2024) > [Wallaces Travels said:](/goto/post?id=733234) > > Also with it having a plastic tailgate > > Click to expand... Is this true? --- ### — 2024-12-20T12:05:02+0100 (Dec 20, 2024) > [Corradobrit said:](/goto/post?id=733239) > > Is this true? > > Click to expand... As has been mentioned before by [@calibusje](https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/members/4679/) , unless the tailgate is changed - tow bar bike rack only. ---